R value’s and marketing.

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R value’s and marketing.

Postby drakkar » Tue 09 Apr, 2019 8:38 pm

I’m interested to hear experiences.

First time I’ve used my ‘Klymit Insulated static V’ in the almost cold over the weekend. Temp was in the low single digits, small Icey breeze with windchill. Same quilt, shelter, etc as used previously with my exped synmat UL7. However, any pressure point got slight rising cold which makes me nervous to use it deeper into winter. The exped I only got cold when a knee or arm dropped over the side and sat on the ground, and I was confident in its warmth to just below freezing (puncture resistance and baffles are a different story, hence the klymit)


Some of their marketing suggests the ribs are for your bag to loft into, however being a quilt user this doesn’t come into it and I wonder if it’s where the problem might be? Looking at it, there is lots of points that there would be no insulation, and I really don’t get how they get their ambitious R value.

On paper my old exped is R3.3 and the Klymit is R4.4
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Lamont » Wed 10 Apr, 2019 10:15 am

Looks like you have found it's limit for you. Not sure if the quilt factors in, given it has no back?
I remember reading of an Ozzie on Redditul that froze on this mat (remember last winter Zapruda?) but I think it was his quilt that was the issue.
Had you done all the necessary things like:-
-eating something sustaining before bed,
- ensuring your quilt was up to the task. Sealed all round, appropriate amount of down.
-good pjs
etc,etc.
GG thinlight on order for you maybe-or nip into Clark Rubber for a 3mm (?) mat to put on (which I would do for the heavily open ridged Klymit) or even under your Klymit?
One of the forum members I recall, feels there's no difference and I myself would heed that advice normally, but, for the Klymit given its open structure, on top might(?) be better.
Last edited by Lamont on Mon 15 Apr, 2019 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think I thought I saw you try.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby drakkar » Wed 10 Apr, 2019 3:21 pm

Lamont wrote:Looks like you have found it's limit for you. Not sure if the quilt factors in, given it has no back?
I remember reading of an Ozzie on Redditul that froze on this mat (remember last winter Zapruda?) but I think it was his quilt that was the issue.
Had you done all the necessary things like:-
-eating something sustaining before bed,
- ensuring your quilt was up to the task. Sealed all round, appropriate amount of down.
-good pjs
etc,etc.
GG thinlight on order for you maybe-or nip into Clark Rubber for a 3mm (?) mat to put on (which I would do for the heavily open ridged Klymit) or even under your Klymit?
One of the forum members I recall, feels there's no difference and I myself would heed that advice normally, but, for the Klymit given its open structure, on top might(?) be better.


I think you summed it up. Little dissapointed given the R-value is 1 whole above the exped yet it performs worse.

Good food, clothes etc all tried over the few nights.

I already had a sit pad come hip pad on my 'should get one day' list. Next trip I might make it more of a priority and borrow a sleeping bag to see if that could be the difference.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby slparker » Wed 10 Apr, 2019 3:47 pm

drakkar wrote:Some of their marketing suggests the ribs are for your bag to loft into, however being a quilt user this doesn’t come into it and I wonder if it’s where the problem might be?


yep - i reckon that this might be the problem, to my knowledge this is how the klymit is designed, to use your bag to provide insulation between in the ribs. with a quilt, each of the spaces becomes a channel to funnel warm air away from your back. Some of your generated body heat is being used to heat atmosphere instead of pad.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Lamont » Wed 10 Apr, 2019 4:08 pm

What quilt and 'rating' did you have out of curiosity? Well sealed?
Head covered?
I think I thought I saw you try.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby drakkar » Wed 10 Apr, 2019 5:02 pm

Lamont wrote:What quilt and 'rating' did you have out of curiosity? Well sealed?
Head covered?


Enlightened equipment Revelation Apex. 4c comfort.

Head cover being my beanie and a neck/face warmer. Ended up wearing thermals.
I've slept in far colder, and heavier frosts/winds and even a light dusting of snow on the exped with the same system. The 3.5 sides that had quilt around them were toasty. just the pressure points on the mat were slowly getting heat sucked out.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Ms_Mudd » Thu 11 Apr, 2019 7:13 pm

drakkar wrote:

Some of their marketing suggests the ribs are for your bag to loft into, however being a quilt user this doesn’t come into it and I wonder if it’s where the problem might be?

BINGO! It's the quilt with it. The mat simply does not work well with a quilt.
I sold my -12C Tier Gear Quenda as a result...although perhaps I should have sold the mat?!!

I used the Klymit UL V (Massdrop) mat all last Winter and the lowest temp I got to was -1C, using CCF underneath the mat and my space blanket groundsheet. Even wearing wearing all my clothes,beanie,warm buff etc etc I still froze with my beautiful big quilt. The mat works much better with a bag, I switched out to an Aegismax -8C (M2 orM3 I think?) bag after one too many nights freezing my bits off and was much warmer for it.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby legend » Mon 15 Apr, 2019 10:38 am

I think you'll find the R value of a mat directly relates to the ground temp and how it insulates you from this.
I think it will also depend on your weight and how it compresses against the ground - softer might give a more comfortable on your body but might be slightly colder as you have less insulation between you and the ground.
The mat has nothing to do with what bag/quilt you are using.
Back in the '70s there was a US chart showing the temperature to thickness of down insulation (this was back when the US$ was much less than the Aus$ and many of us were buying the gear from over there). It was very useful and one could estimate what bag you needed for a given temp.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby drakkar » Mon 15 Apr, 2019 4:57 pm

Ms_Mudd wrote:
drakkar wrote:

Some of their marketing suggests the ribs are for your bag to loft into, however being a quilt user this doesn’t come into it and I wonder if it’s where the problem might be?

BINGO! It's the quilt with it. The mat simply does not work well with a quilt.
I sold my -12C Tier Gear Quenda as a result...although perhaps I should have sold the mat?!!

I used the Klymit UL V (Massdrop) mat all last Winter and the lowest temp I got to was -1C, using CCF underneath the mat and my space blanket groundsheet. Even wearing wearing all my clothes,beanie,warm buff etc etc I still froze with my beautiful big quilt. The mat works much better with a bag, I switched out to an Aegismax -8C (M2 orM3 I think?) bag after one too many nights freezing my bits off and was much warmer for it.


Thanks. Kinda what I expected. Didn’t think of it when I purchased (impulse buy due to baffle failure mid trip)

How close are the aegismax bags to their advertised weight and temps?

legend wrote:I think you'll find the R value of a mat directly relates to the ground temp and how it insulates you from this.
I think it will also depend on your weight and how it compresses against the ground - softer might give a more comfortable on your body but might be slightly colder as you have less insulation between you and the ground.
The mat has nothing to do with what bag/quilt you are using.
Back in the '70s there was a US chart showing the temperature to thickness of down insulation (this was back when the US$ was much less than the Aus$ and many of us were buying the gear from over there). It was very useful and one could estimate what bag you needed for a given temp.


That’s what I would of thought too (my exped was only warm in sub zero temps when it was rock hard) But I experimented with the klymit over a few nights and there was no change... Ms Mudd quoted above seems to echo my experience.

Looking at the mat, there is sections every rib that are only 2-4mm thick. How can this have an R value of 4.4?
Using a bag rated to -5 with it lofting in the ribs is how they get is I suspect. Gotta now evaluate if the extra strength and width is worth the trade off of spending good coin on a sleeping bag.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Lamont » Mon 15 Apr, 2019 6:23 pm

Or as I suggested in my post above -might save you some money, might not--"GG thinlight on order for you maybe-or nip into Clark Rubber for a 3mm (?) mat to put on (which I would do for the heavily open ridged Klymit) or even under your Klymit?'
I think I thought I saw you try.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Huntsman247 » Mon 15 Apr, 2019 8:52 pm

Lamont wrote:Or as I suggested in my post above -might save you some money, might not--"GG thinlight on order for you maybe-or nip into Clark Rubber for a 3mm (?) mat to put on (which I would do for the heavily open ridged Klymit) or even under your Klymit?'
How heavy is that rubber?
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Lamont » Mon 15 Apr, 2019 9:10 pm

95 grams just search GG Thinlight. 3mm EVA. 'Gossamer Gear' Clarks might have similar and cbeaper.
I think I thought I saw you try.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Ms_Mudd » Thu 18 Apr, 2019 9:08 am

Interesting, food for thought. Putting the thin CCF on top of the Klymit mat may well have solved the cold issues, I used it under along with my space blanket ground sheet.
If on top, the ccf would presumably stop those gaps in the 'ribs' if the mat channeling the cold air right to your lower back and torso, which is what it felt like to me. I actually have my mat out at the moment as airing gear after using on Mon/ Tuesday and had a good look after the post and I think the issue lies with the gaps following the one line , right to the middle of the mat, whereas other sorts of mats might have offset dimping or what have you. Although my opinion is based on my own use of the mat only, those gaps do perform better with a bag underneath you-or potentially CCF on top as discussed here if using a quilt.

As for the Aegismax bag, I have been satisfied with mine, only had it down to a fraction below zero though, so don't know how accurate the estimations are. I am a woman and thought I was a cold sleeper- perhaps the Klymit/Quilt was the issue, not that I am necessarily a cold frog- but so far even when at 0C, I havent even zipped myself fully in the hood of the bag yet. It will get more of a run this Winter which will be interesting.
It certainly has the features of a more expensive bag, draft tube, offset non-sewn through baffles, a tonne of loft etc etc. The outer material does feel a bit 'shinier' than my other bags, but has been robust enough for the use it has seen so far and it hasn't shed any down. The bag is also out at the moment if you want any detailed pics. My son used it while I used my summer bag this week so it is also airing. Took my youngest two (9yo and 11yo) on their first overnight bushwalk. I was the good Mum and gave the youngest the warmest bag. Was worried about using my s2s sp1 myself, but shouldn't have been as I was sandwiched between two kids who squished me warmly all night :lol:
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