R value’s and marketing.

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R value’s and marketing.

Postby drakkar » Tue 09 Apr, 2019 8:38 pm

I’m interested to hear experiences.

First time I’ve used my ‘Klymit Insulated static V’ in the almost cold over the weekend. Temp was in the low single digits, small Icey breeze with windchill. Same quilt, shelter, etc as used previously with my exped synmat UL7. However, any pressure point got slight rising cold which makes me nervous to use it deeper into winter. The exped I only got cold when a knee or arm dropped over the side and sat on the ground, and I was confident in its warmth to just below freezing (puncture resistance and baffles are a different story, hence the klymit)


Some of their marketing suggests the ribs are for your bag to loft into, however being a quilt user this doesn’t come into it and I wonder if it’s where the problem might be? Looking at it, there is lots of points that there would be no insulation, and I really don’t get how they get their ambitious R value.

On paper my old exped is R3.3 and the Klymit is R4.4
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Lamont » Wed 10 Apr, 2019 10:15 am

Looks like you have found it's limit for you. Not sure if the quilt factors in, given it has no back?
I remember reading of an Ozzie on Redditul that froze on this mat (remember last winter Zapruda?) but I think it was his quilt that was the issue.
Had you done all the necessary things like:-
-eating something sustaining before bed,
- ensuring your quilt was up to the task. Sealed all round, appropriate amount of down.
-good pjs
etc,etc.
GG thinlight on order for you maybe-or nip into Clark Rubber for a 3mm (?) mat to put on (which I would do for the heavily open ridged Klymit) or even under your Klymit?
One of the forum members I recall, feels there's no difference and I myself would heed that advice normally, but, for the Klymit given its open structure, on top might(?) be better.
Last edited by Lamont on Mon 15 Apr, 2019 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby drakkar » Wed 10 Apr, 2019 3:21 pm

Lamont wrote:Looks like you have found it's limit for you. Not sure if the quilt factors in, given it has no back?
I remember reading of an Ozzie on Redditul that froze on this mat (remember last winter Zapruda?) but I think it was his quilt that was the issue.
Had you done all the necessary things like:-
-eating something sustaining before bed,
- ensuring your quilt was up to the task. Sealed all round, appropriate amount of down.
-good pjs
etc,etc.
GG thinlight on order for you maybe-or nip into Clark Rubber for a 3mm (?) mat to put on (which I would do for the heavily open ridged Klymit) or even under your Klymit?
One of the forum members I recall, feels there's no difference and I myself would heed that advice normally, but, for the Klymit given its open structure, on top might(?) be better.


I think you summed it up. Little dissapointed given the R-value is 1 whole above the exped yet it performs worse.

Good food, clothes etc all tried over the few nights.

I already had a sit pad come hip pad on my 'should get one day' list. Next trip I might make it more of a priority and borrow a sleeping bag to see if that could be the difference.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby slparker » Wed 10 Apr, 2019 3:47 pm

drakkar wrote:Some of their marketing suggests the ribs are for your bag to loft into, however being a quilt user this doesn’t come into it and I wonder if it’s where the problem might be?


yep - i reckon that this might be the problem, to my knowledge this is how the klymit is designed, to use your bag to provide insulation between in the ribs. with a quilt, each of the spaces becomes a channel to funnel warm air away from your back. Some of your generated body heat is being used to heat atmosphere instead of pad.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Lamont » Wed 10 Apr, 2019 4:08 pm

What quilt and 'rating' did you have out of curiosity? Well sealed?
Head covered?
I think I thought I saw you try.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby drakkar » Wed 10 Apr, 2019 5:02 pm

Lamont wrote:What quilt and 'rating' did you have out of curiosity? Well sealed?
Head covered?


Enlightened equipment Revelation Apex. 4c comfort.

Head cover being my beanie and a neck/face warmer. Ended up wearing thermals.
I've slept in far colder, and heavier frosts/winds and even a light dusting of snow on the exped with the same system. The 3.5 sides that had quilt around them were toasty. just the pressure points on the mat were slowly getting heat sucked out.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Ms_Mudd » Thu 11 Apr, 2019 7:13 pm

drakkar wrote:

Some of their marketing suggests the ribs are for your bag to loft into, however being a quilt user this doesn’t come into it and I wonder if it’s where the problem might be?

BINGO! It's the quilt with it. The mat simply does not work well with a quilt.
I sold my -12C Tier Gear Quenda as a result...although perhaps I should have sold the mat?!!

I used the Klymit UL V (Massdrop) mat all last Winter and the lowest temp I got to was -1C, using CCF underneath the mat and my space blanket groundsheet. Even wearing wearing all my clothes,beanie,warm buff etc etc I still froze with my beautiful big quilt. The mat works much better with a bag, I switched out to an Aegismax -8C (M2 orM3 I think?) bag after one too many nights freezing my bits off and was much warmer for it.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby legend » Mon 15 Apr, 2019 10:38 am

I think you'll find the R value of a mat directly relates to the ground temp and how it insulates you from this.
I think it will also depend on your weight and how it compresses against the ground - softer might give a more comfortable on your body but might be slightly colder as you have less insulation between you and the ground.
The mat has nothing to do with what bag/quilt you are using.
Back in the '70s there was a US chart showing the temperature to thickness of down insulation (this was back when the US$ was much less than the Aus$ and many of us were buying the gear from over there). It was very useful and one could estimate what bag you needed for a given temp.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby drakkar » Mon 15 Apr, 2019 4:57 pm

Ms_Mudd wrote:
drakkar wrote:

Some of their marketing suggests the ribs are for your bag to loft into, however being a quilt user this doesn’t come into it and I wonder if it’s where the problem might be?

BINGO! It's the quilt with it. The mat simply does not work well with a quilt.
I sold my -12C Tier Gear Quenda as a result...although perhaps I should have sold the mat?!!

I used the Klymit UL V (Massdrop) mat all last Winter and the lowest temp I got to was -1C, using CCF underneath the mat and my space blanket groundsheet. Even wearing wearing all my clothes,beanie,warm buff etc etc I still froze with my beautiful big quilt. The mat works much better with a bag, I switched out to an Aegismax -8C (M2 orM3 I think?) bag after one too many nights freezing my bits off and was much warmer for it.


Thanks. Kinda what I expected. Didn’t think of it when I purchased (impulse buy due to baffle failure mid trip)

How close are the aegismax bags to their advertised weight and temps?

legend wrote:I think you'll find the R value of a mat directly relates to the ground temp and how it insulates you from this.
I think it will also depend on your weight and how it compresses against the ground - softer might give a more comfortable on your body but might be slightly colder as you have less insulation between you and the ground.
The mat has nothing to do with what bag/quilt you are using.
Back in the '70s there was a US chart showing the temperature to thickness of down insulation (this was back when the US$ was much less than the Aus$ and many of us were buying the gear from over there). It was very useful and one could estimate what bag you needed for a given temp.


That’s what I would of thought too (my exped was only warm in sub zero temps when it was rock hard) But I experimented with the klymit over a few nights and there was no change... Ms Mudd quoted above seems to echo my experience.

Looking at the mat, there is sections every rib that are only 2-4mm thick. How can this have an R value of 4.4?
Using a bag rated to -5 with it lofting in the ribs is how they get is I suspect. Gotta now evaluate if the extra strength and width is worth the trade off of spending good coin on a sleeping bag.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Lamont » Mon 15 Apr, 2019 6:23 pm

Or as I suggested in my post above -might save you some money, might not--"GG thinlight on order for you maybe-or nip into Clark Rubber for a 3mm (?) mat to put on (which I would do for the heavily open ridged Klymit) or even under your Klymit?'
I think I thought I saw you try.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Huntsman247 » Mon 15 Apr, 2019 8:52 pm

Lamont wrote:Or as I suggested in my post above -might save you some money, might not--"GG thinlight on order for you maybe-or nip into Clark Rubber for a 3mm (?) mat to put on (which I would do for the heavily open ridged Klymit) or even under your Klymit?'
How heavy is that rubber?
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Lamont » Mon 15 Apr, 2019 9:10 pm

95 grams just search GG Thinlight. 3mm EVA. 'Gossamer Gear' Clarks might have similar and cbeaper.
I think I thought I saw you try.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Ms_Mudd » Thu 18 Apr, 2019 9:08 am

Interesting, food for thought. Putting the thin CCF on top of the Klymit mat may well have solved the cold issues, I used it under along with my space blanket ground sheet.
If on top, the ccf would presumably stop those gaps in the 'ribs' if the mat channeling the cold air right to your lower back and torso, which is what it felt like to me. I actually have my mat out at the moment as airing gear after using on Mon/ Tuesday and had a good look after the post and I think the issue lies with the gaps following the one line , right to the middle of the mat, whereas other sorts of mats might have offset dimping or what have you. Although my opinion is based on my own use of the mat only, those gaps do perform better with a bag underneath you-or potentially CCF on top as discussed here if using a quilt.

As for the Aegismax bag, I have been satisfied with mine, only had it down to a fraction below zero though, so don't know how accurate the estimations are. I am a woman and thought I was a cold sleeper- perhaps the Klymit/Quilt was the issue, not that I am necessarily a cold frog- but so far even when at 0C, I havent even zipped myself fully in the hood of the bag yet. It will get more of a run this Winter which will be interesting.
It certainly has the features of a more expensive bag, draft tube, offset non-sewn through baffles, a tonne of loft etc etc. The outer material does feel a bit 'shinier' than my other bags, but has been robust enough for the use it has seen so far and it hasn't shed any down. The bag is also out at the moment if you want any detailed pics. My son used it while I used my summer bag this week so it is also airing. Took my youngest two (9yo and 11yo) on their first overnight bushwalk. I was the good Mum and gave the youngest the warmest bag. Was worried about using my s2s sp1 myself, but shouldn't have been as I was sandwiched between two kids who squished me warmly all night :lol:
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby drakkar » Sun 19 May, 2019 7:58 pm

Car camping trip this weekend so was able to try a few things.

Stole my daughters bag. Just a cheap Denali 300g/650loft. ‘Comfort’ of 2c (ambitious I know)
Was based around eildon on the water. Ambient was 2-4c going by my thermometer.
Still got rising cold.

Cheap CCF yoga mat. No difference on the bottom. To uncomfortable on the top.

A reflective windscreen sunshade on the bottom made a noticable difference.

S2S reactor. Had me borderline on sweaty toasty.... except where my knee/hip/toes poked into one of the ribs of the mat.


The mat I got is either not actually insulated correctly, or their claims are wildly off. Shame, as it’s part of what sold me.
Guess I’m mat shopping again :(
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Ms_Mudd » Mon 20 May, 2019 8:11 am

Damn! Such a shame. Hope you can find a mat that is comfy and keeps you warm enough.
I do admire your scientific spirit though in trying many things.
I use a space blanket as a ground sheet, perhaps that has been the saving grace in not freezing with the Klymit once I switched from quilt to a bag, although the bag is rated to -8C, so maybe that has saved me too.
I actually have fallen in love with a cheapie BA mat I bought on sale for my daughter, it is so thick compared to my Klymit, but is a known 'cold' mat, uninisulated so not even any claims at being warm. Will be keen to give it a run (safely!) in some cooler weather and compare performance between the two.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Nuts » Mon 20 May, 2019 8:28 am

I considered attaching quilt hooks directly to the mat, in the welded sections. These mats are better with a big lofty sleeping bag. To some extent all inflatable mats have air - movement channels but these mats probably allow more to move around under you as well (without down bulk filling the low bits). Personally, I otherwise find the design very comfortable and we haven't had any baffles fail yet (which is a big bonus).
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby drakkar » Mon 20 May, 2019 11:38 am

Less scientific and more about trying to not waste money.

The one thing I thought of on the way home was put the mat inside my bag liner may help a little.

It’s not air movement that’s the issue. I happily sleep out in the open under a tarp on the exped. It’s that my toes/knees/hips manage to fall into the ribs and touch the ground = cold.

Now to decide if I explore other brands, or suck up the fragility of the exped.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Nuts » Mon 20 May, 2019 12:50 pm

I can imagine what you mean though haven't heard that particular complaint.

drakkar wrote: The one thing I thought of on the way home was put the mat inside my bag liner may help a little.


Do you mean inside the liner, inside your sleeping bag? or have you been using a cover? The times i've used a down bag with this mat i've just used it straight on the mat.

I do make a habit of (weight on heels) letting the bag loose underneath me before lying down so the shell fabric isn't stretched and inhibiting the down puffing into the pockets.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby FNM » Tue 04 Jun, 2019 11:15 am

drakkar wrote:I’m interested to hear experiences.

First time I’ve used my ‘Klymit Insulated static V’ in the almost cold over the weekend. Temp was in the low single digits, small Icey breeze with windchill. Same quilt, shelter, etc as used previously with my exped synmat UL7. However, any pressure point got slight rising cold which makes me nervous to use it deeper into winter. The exped I only got cold when a knee or arm dropped over the side and sat on the ground, and I was confident in its warmth to just below freezing (puncture resistance and baffles are a different story, hence the klymit)


Some of their marketing suggests the ribs are for your bag to loft into, however being a quilt user this doesn’t come into it and I wonder if it’s where the problem might be? Looking at it, there is lots of points that there would be no insulation, and I really don’t get how they get their ambitious R value.

On paper my old exped is R3.3 and the Klymit is R4.4


This is a rather disappointing read. I have been tossing up which pad to go for, for a long while now and the Klymit Ins Static V Luxe wasn't even on the radar until I lay on one a few days ago (in a shop). Was stoked bc I thought I'd finally found my pad. I was surprised at how much the extra width added to overall comfort. My sleeping pad is the one item that I am willing to sacrifice weight for best comfort. Not sure where to look now - no other item seems to come close to the 76cm width of this bad boy. Next best are around the 65cm.

I am a quilt user as well. I note you were in low single figure temps. How do you think it would go in high single digit temps?
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Ms_Mudd » Tue 04 Jun, 2019 12:19 pm

FNM wrote:
drakkar wrote:
I am a quilt user as well. I note you were in low single figure temps. How do you think it would go in high single digit temps?


You would be okay in high single digits I reckon, of course accounting for all other variables like decent quilt, full belly of food etc, decent baselayers etc. It was only as those single digits approached freezing that I had frozen-MsMudd-in-a-tent issues with the Klymit CCF/Space blanket combo. I think if your quilt is wide enough it should tuck nicely around you. I think that was one of my errors too when ordering my quilt, although I am a small person, I should have opted for a wide quilt for just that purpose. So it may not be all the Klymit pads 'fault' that I was so so cold using the quilt with it.

After replying to this thread, I looked up my Aegismax bag rating and although listed as -5 to -8C on the tag, that is actually the lower limit, the comfort rating is 0C according to the more updated listings for it.
I got a new sleep pad yesterday and wanted to try out a few things for my snowy time adventures, so slept on my concrete front verandah with my mat and bag last night (my husband just laughed at me), it was snowing in the mountains and *&%$#! cold here in town. I had just my baselayers, silk liner ,a beanie and a woolie neck thing my MIL made me and was warm as toast, a tad sweaty even at 0330am. I had with me on the verandah a SOL Escape Bivvy bag and a cheapo heavy synthetic bag (just picked up a much lighter synthetic at Vinnies this morning for a DIY project) just in case I needed to boost warmth overnight, but was all good. Interestingly enough, the pad I bought is reputed to 'sleep cold' and there are extensive reviews online to that effect, but so far so good. Perhaps I should try the Klymit out there on the verandah tonight as a comparison, as the conditions will be much the same. Now that would really make my husband shake his head at me :lol:
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby drakkar » Tue 04 Jun, 2019 10:04 pm

High singles you should be fine.

I need a quality winter bag anyway. Before I give up entirely on the klymit, I think I’ll buy the bag and hope for the best.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Ms_Mudd » Wed 05 Jun, 2019 12:02 pm

Let me know how you get on with the mat with a bag, Drakkar. Be interested to see if your experience is similar to my own
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby FNM » Wed 05 Jun, 2019 8:09 pm

Ms_Mudd wrote:
FNM wrote:
drakkar wrote:
I am a quilt user as well. I note you were in low single figure temps. How do you think it would go in high single digit temps?


You would be okay in high single digits I reckon, of course accounting for all other variables like decent quilt, full belly of food etc, decent baselayers etc. It was only as those single digits approached freezing that I had frozen-MsMudd-in-a-tent issues with the Klymit CCF/Space blanket combo. I think if your quilt is wide enough it should tuck nicely around you. I think that was one of my errors too when ordering my quilt, although I am a small person, I should have opted for a wide quilt for just that purpose. So it may not be all the Klymit pads 'fault' that I was so so cold using the quilt with it.



Yeah, I’m not huge on having gear that I have to ‘think’ about is all. I emailed Klymit a couple of days ago regarding my concerns and this was the response:

Hello,

While the Static V Luxe is designed to work with a sleeping bag as opposed to a quilt, the difference can easily be remedied.
Your sleeping quilt will need to be rated to the temperature you are sleeping in. The pad insulates against the cold of the ground, but the sleeping bag/quilt keeps your body heat near you. If you toss a lot in your sleep, that is where you will experience issues, since the warm air will escape into the open, and your body will have to work harder to re-heat the space under your quilt. You can mitigate this by tucking your quilt around your pad and securing in place however you choose to prevent drafts, or you can add an additional layer of insulation between your body and the ground by laying on another blanket, or putting a closed cell foam pad underneath your inflatable pad. The clothes you choose to sleep in also play a big part.
Personally, I have used my insulated pad into similar temperatures with a quilt, and while it was a little chiller, it was not cold enough to prevent my adventures.

Thank you,

(Name removed)

Doesn’t fill me with great confidence to be honest! ... however, I am still tempted! Just love that width. I’ve got a -5 Wide quilt from Mike, so I’m sorted there. She doesn’t really address drakkar’s point about it being cold in the ribs aside from the CCF mat, I guess.

In more positive news, I lay on a few more mats today and found the exped 7LW and 9LW super comfortable. I thought 65cm would still feel too narrow, but seemed pretty damn good. They were both Long Wide so 197cm or so x 65cm, which also helps... the 7 was down, the 9 was syn... not far behind them in comfort was the Sea To Summit Comfort Deluxe Insulated Rectangle - one of the ones with the dimple surface. It was regular length and wide so 183x64. I found those 3 to be more comfortable than the S2S Comfort Plus SI, which is interesting. Anyway, I believe all of these are in the 1.1-1.25kg category but I’m ok with that. I go very light on tent and quilt, so happy to carry a bit more with the pad and I need to for a good night’s sleep, so it’s a no-brainer!... The Klymit Insulated Luxe is around 925g from memory.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby FNM » Wed 05 Jun, 2019 8:14 pm

drakkar wrote:
Now to decide if I explore other brands, or suck up the fragility of the exped.


... what have you got to say to spoil my Exped party??! :D
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby jjoz58 » Sat 08 Jun, 2019 8:29 am

My daughter started out the PCT this year using that Klymit Mat and she is a quilt user. Worked fine in Qld and Northern NSW but failed miserably on the PCT. By day 3 she had ordered a Exped Winterlite, which was the one I used in the snow and on the cold ground with a quilt, on the AT last year. Thick and insulated and never felt the cold even on snow. Owned it 3 years and never had a problem, going by comments about exped mats, I must be lucky or something.
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby FNM » Sat 08 Jun, 2019 12:06 pm

jjoz58 wrote:My daughter started out the PCT this year using that Klymit Mat and she is a quilt user. Worked fine in Qld and Northern NSW but failed miserably on the PCT. By day 3 she had ordered a Exped Winterlite, which was the one I used in the snow and on the cold ground with a quilt, on the AT last year. Thick and insulated and never felt the cold even on snow. Owned it 3 years and never had a problem, going by comments about exped mats, I must be lucky or something.


Good to hear JJ! The more I look into Exped, the more taken I am with their mats! Great selection on offer.

Relevant to the talk of the Klymit mat that’s been discussed, Exped offer this extra-wide bad boy (77cm Width, 197cm Length, 1.165kg) that comes in at R-Value of 2.9, with suggested Temp of -2 degrees. Think it’s the only other 77cm mat I’ve seen so far. Looks good.

http://www.exped.com/australia/en/produ ... lmat-5-lxw

Going to be a slow process deciding on an Exped mat!! Reckon I’ll finally find my mat though!
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby J M » Sat 08 Jun, 2019 11:54 pm

Be careful with exped mats - a lot of people (myself included) have had multiple fail. If I were buying now I'd either go for a sea to summit or a thermarest.
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J M
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby FNM » Sun 09 Jun, 2019 12:28 am

J M wrote:Be careful with exped mats - a lot of people (myself included) have had multiple fail. If I were buying now I'd either go for a sea to summit or a thermarest.


Have they been any mats in particular? All UL? The ones I’m mainly focusing on are the Downmat and SynMat (1-1.2kg), although will def take a close look at the mat in my previous post. In other words, I’m not looking at their UL mats and I wonder if that makes a difference?
Last edited by FNM on Sun 09 Jun, 2019 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
FNM
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Xastorm » Sun 09 Jun, 2019 7:00 am

I’ve just purchased an Exped downmat despite all the horror stories due to not finding a comparable R value (7) lightweight mat (~560g). I am a fairly small female and sleep very cold, and need something warm enough to sleep on snow without being too heavy or taking up too much pack space. Admittedly I do not need the length the Exped provides.

The Nemo Tensor Alpine Mummy looks interesting but they don’t publish an R value. Reviews would suggest it is similar to the s2s etherlight, so likely not warm enough. I have a Thermarest currently and find it so uncomfortable I’m reluctant to buy another. Have the rest of the sleeping kit sorted (appropriate bag, clothing, etc) so it’s just the cold from the ground left to sort.

Any suggestions welcome, I have 2 weeks before I can test out the Exped so a week to find an alternative. The Exped are pretty pricey if it’s destined to fail, and moreso, what happens if it fails early into a trip? :shock:
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Re: R value’s and marketing.

Postby Nuts » Sun 09 Jun, 2019 5:34 pm

I think i'd consider a self-inflating or closed cell foam mat (or both) if really worried about air movement or deflation.
Give up some thickness but they are comfortable enough.
In favour of the Klymit, it's the only brand (inf) mat of three or four that has lasted long enough to start to wear out valves.
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