Jetboil Flash Disaster

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Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Species 8472 » Sun 13 Jan, 2019 8:10 pm

After life long Trangia user I decided for the sake of some lower weight to invest in a Jetboil Flash. Rays matched Snowies price ($139) and I decided to test it. I had already viewed many YouTube videos and skimped over the instructions. I tested the flame on empty and immediately smelt the insulating sleeve burning.A very plastic burn. I switched it off then peeled the sleeve off.I repeated the burn then noticed the plastic rim under the metal rim of the stove was melting.I quikly switched it off then cooled it with water. To my horror the stove was fused to the cup. I managed to seperate them then noticed a perforation on the floor of the cup. I went back to the instructions and saw DO NOT HEAT EMPTY.
They did not say if you heat on empty that the stove would melt and perforate on 1st use.
Call me a knob but for years I sometimes sterilize my trangia pots with a little heat 1st on empty kmowing the heat will kill off any bugs left on the surface from the previous meal ( dishwashing's not easy on the trail )

Well am I a knob or is there a serious problem here with this equipment?
I'll attempt to return it tomorrow
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Moondog55 » Sun 13 Jan, 2019 8:15 pm

Operator error
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby norts » Sun 13 Jan, 2019 8:27 pm

As you said instructions say not to heat empty cup, doesnt sound like the stove was faulty, as Moondog said , operator error.
I have melted the sleeve but realised my error very quickly and threw some water in the pot, you should wake up properly before making your first coffee in the morning. It never got hot enough to melt the stove.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Aardvark » Sun 13 Jan, 2019 9:46 pm

Seen it, done it. Operator error.
Puzzled by the perforation though.
Ever on the search for a one ended stick.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby photohiker » Mon 14 Jan, 2019 7:47 am

When buying a new Jetboil cooking system compared to the Trangia or other type, should always read the instructions if have never read or used it before:

Image

https://www.jetboil.com/sites/jetboil_s ... sh2018.pdf
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Franco » Mon 14 Jan, 2019 10:07 am

I don't drive so when I see a speed sign I tell my wife that they are just a suggestion.
Speed.jpg


(BTW, I am still bothered by the "police enforcing speed" sign. Why do they need to do that ? People are already driving fast enough!)
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 14 Jan, 2019 1:11 pm

The old wording that said "Police targeting speeding" was much less ambiguous. I see that one and I tell The Boss to put the foot down and go faster.
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Species 8472 » Mon 14 Jan, 2019 4:31 pm

The paper user guide in the package does say not to burn dry. It doesn't say the consequences of it as in the new 2018 guide.( the 2018 model is not available in Aus yet ) The print is very small and difficult to read even with glasses but I photographed the section for your viewing. It doesn't mention meltdown. I would think they should put such a warning in big print near the top.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Mark F » Mon 14 Jan, 2019 5:09 pm

I think the photo makes it VERY CLEAR that heating an empty cooking cup is not a good idea - my capitals to reinforce those on the instructions. While I am not a Jetboil user I expect that burning the insulating sleeve is a potential indicator that you had it turned up quite high.

Aluminium pots are quite easy to destroy especially in the very thin metal used by Jetboil. Ti is a much more robust material but even it may distort if heated dry. Unfortunately Jetboil's foray into Ti didn't end well due to issues with the fins separating from the pot.

Lesson: buy a new pot and enjoy your Jetboil with your newfound knowledge.
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove".
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Warin » Mon 14 Jan, 2019 7:13 pm

Moondog55 wrote:Operator error


+1

A pan heated on a domestic cook top can have the same problem. You have learnt something.. heating pans up is not something that is carefree. A Trangia has so little heating power they you can get away with it... any thing else including a wood camp fire and you can have problems.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Hiking Noob » Mon 14 Jan, 2019 7:54 pm

If you put a wetsuit in to a heated pot it will burn, if you put a wetsuit in boiling water it will get hot and wet.......
I couldn't attempt to return it but I am curious to see what the staff member says, if it was Bunnings you'd probably get a new one.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby photohiker » Mon 14 Jan, 2019 9:09 pm

Species 8472 wrote:The paper user guide in the package does say not to burn dry.


If it is burned dry, it will wreck it. That's what has happened.

Both Jetboil user guides says not to burn it dry. Plenty of information on the web about the Jetboil.

I bought my Jetboil titanium Sol Ti from the US in 2011. Still works perfect. Have never run it with no water in it, that would wreck it.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby slparker » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 9:31 am

So lets get this straight...

You don't read the instructions that come with a piece of kit that you are not familiar with (kit that uses an explosive gas under high pressure), use the kit incorrectly (thus destroying it) and instead of accepting responsibility blame the manufacturer for not displaying a warning more visibly.

Then you produce a photograph of the instructions which displays the warning in a larger and bolder font 'Do not heat empty cooking cup' -which seems to fit the criterion of a highly visible warning.

You also complain: "They did not say if you heat on empty that the stove would melt and perforate on 1st use."

So, the manufacturer should have known that there were people ignorant enough to not only not read the safety instructions on a device designed to burn an explosive gas under high pressure but they then should have known that there were people ignorant enough to read the instructions and ignore such instruction - thus necessitating another instruction describing the consequences of ignoring the first safety instruction.

Yes, I can see how this is jetboil's fault.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby neilmny » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 11:45 am

slparker wrote:So lets get this straight.................etc


That all really needed to be said. To expect or even hope for a replacement under the curcumstances is not ethical.
It was a stuff up. Just take the medicine.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby photohiker » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 2:15 pm

Also, in 2011, Jetboil said similar info about running the pot with no water:

DO NOT HEAT EMPTY COOKING CUP

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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Nuts » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 2:30 pm

Huh. Do these come with an Australian Standards tag?
That looks like a flawed design to me, something that really shouldn't be possible (edit: or any more so than any given aluminium pot left on a stove long enough)

And Jetboil obviously have previous experiences with these, how many? Is any warning for such a meltdown good enough?
It wasn't good enough to warn cartridge stove users to properly engage the canister collar with the device (or they could catch fire).., they were recalled. :?

While there's obviously some involved, (probably obvious enough that this issue should be expected?), I wouldn't accept user error as a dismissal of responsibility.
"The guides are all complaining there's mobile reception and hot showers," Godfrey laughs.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby wildwanderer » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 2:47 pm

On a side note.
Instead of attempting dry sterilisation, boiling water is just as effective.

My routine for cleaning when I don’t have washing up liquid/rag
1. After eating. Lick the pot and spoon clean of large food scraps (my pot is my bowl)
2. Boil myself some water for a tea. With a lid the steam causes any remaining small food debris to roll down into the liquid. Add tea. Drink. Pot is reasonably clean for the night.
3. Next morning boil water, place spoon into boiling water.
4. result spoon and pot are sterilised and hot water is ready for my morning coffee.
5. Dinner time. Once again the act of boiling the water sterilises the pot and spoon.
With this method Ive never had dirty pots. On the odd occasion when doing a very messy dish I will give the pot a wipe down with a baby wipe. But that’s very rare.

And I actually think the hot water/steam method is more sanitary than using a dish cloth as by day 3 a dishwashing cloth is likely quite filthy/loaded with germs.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Mark F » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 2:59 pm

Nuts wrote:Huh. Do these come with an Australian Standards tag?
That looks like a flawed design to me, something that really shouldn't be possible (edit: or any more so than any given aluminium pot left on a stove long enough)

And Jetboil obviously have previous experiences with these, how many? Is any warning for such a meltdown good enough?
It wasn't good enough to warn cartridge stove users to properly engage the canister collar with the device (or they could catch fire).., they were recalled. :?

While there's obviously some involved, (probably obvious enough that this issue should be expected?), I wouldn't accept user error as a dismissal of responsibility.


Nuts - how can you design a stove that will detect that there is sufficient liquid in the pot to allow it to be lit?. No bushwalking stove on the market does this and weight alone is not sufficient, a certain level of competency is expected from the operator and I expect there is a warning elsewhere to read the instructions before use. The Australian Standards are about gas safety nothing else. It is a bit like filling your petrol engined car with diesel - your fault, not the manufacturers, not the servo, and they have no responsibility moral or otherwise.
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove".
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby wildwanderer » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 3:10 pm

Mark F wrote:
Nuts wrote:Huh. Do these come with an Australian Standards tag?
That looks like a flawed design to me, something that really shouldn't be possible (edit: or any more so than any given aluminium pot left on a stove long enough)

And Jetboil obviously have previous experiences with these, how many? Is any warning for such a meltdown good enough?
It wasn't good enough to warn cartridge stove users to properly engage the canister collar with the device (or they could catch fire).., they were recalled. :?

While there's obviously some involved, (probably obvious enough that this issue should be expected?), I wouldn't accept user error as a dismissal of responsibility.


Nuts - how can you design a stove that will detect that there is sufficient liquid in the pot to allow it to be lit?. No bushwalking stove on the market does this and weight alone is not sufficient, A certain level of competency is expected from the operator and I expect there is a warning elsewhere to read the instructions before use. It is a bit like filling your petrol engined car with diesel - your fault, not the manufacturers and they have no responsibility moral or otherwise.


Keep in mind however that most other stoves, one can light them and place a dry pot on top for a small period of time without any part or pot melting. Obviously, some user error here (and I wouldn’t be returning it expecting a refund) however I think Nuts and Species 8472 have a point about larger labelling and explicit warning of the consequences.

I dont own a Jetboil but if as stated Jetboils melt immediately after ignition (when there is no water in the pot) its an outcome quite different to the vast majority of stoves. Of course if you lit it and let it burn for a minute or two on a dry Aluminium pot....
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Mark F » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 3:49 pm

wildwanderer wrote:Keep in mind however that most other stoves, one can light them and place a dry pot on top for a small period of time without any part or pot melting. Obviously, some user error here (and I wouldn’t be returning it expecting a refund) however I think Nuts and Species 8472 have a point about larger labelling and explicit warning of the consequences.


The warning is in bold and not hidden away on page 47. Sounds a bit like placing a warning on a revolver not to aim it at your head and then being at fault because you don't spell out the consequences.

You can do exactly what the op did on your kitchen stove and I didn't notice any warnings about it when I had a new stove top installed.
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove".
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Nuts » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 3:57 pm

Would standards apply to the gas pathway or to the appliance? (I don't know) With a similar mode (failure to heed the warning) and outcome (catastrophic meltdown) I doubt a coroner would see much difference?

Does the stove have a compliance tag?
How long did that take (it all sounds very quick)?

Design a stove without cute cozy (if it's not safe) heavier / no heat exchanger (if it's not safe)

The attempt at better warnings could just as easily be seen as proof.
"The guides are all complaining there's mobile reception and hot showers," Godfrey laughs.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby photohiker » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 5:01 pm

The Jetboil was designed to run fast, have minimum effect from wind, and way, way more efficient heating the food.

Several times, they have said not to heat the pot with no water, and never leave away with it running because it could run out of water and be destroyed.

Have always had it since 2010 and never a problem. If people ignore how the system is used, then it won't work well.

Mine was bought from the USA because they wern't available in AU back then, and the AU cost was way high when it was released in AU. So never had a AU compliance tag on mine, no idea if the current AU version has one.

My Jetboil has been in AU (Tas, SA, NT), UK (Scotland, Ireland), Sweden, NZ, and never have a problem.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Moondog55 » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 5:09 pm

While I still think it is operator error I do appreciate that the stove itself may have some design flaws, but they are not cheap and I would have thought that you [ ie: Species 8472] would have done at least a little research before buying one.
Not putting a LW empty pot on to a heat source is Home Economics 101 after all
I've never thought of them as a walkers stove myself, too specialised for Alpine climbing IMO
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Nuts » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 5:23 pm

I had an MSR reactor when they first arrived, purchased locally, intended for hire gear but it never made the grade for long. The pot soon came back warped from overheating, even with verbal instruction.. and that was enough to consider them generally unsuitable.

The life/walking experience of users here may be part of a problem in giving advice (or imagining problems). I'm sure, as some have mentioned with the Jetboil, it's not beyond imagination that among new users this mistake might be overall common, to different degrees. Is 'common', given the potential to set yourself/tent or the bush alight, 1 in 10 :? The company could very well need to be hedging their sales profit against containing collateral damage (I'd heard of this issue before but thought they would surely have found a way to newbie-proof their stoves)
"The guides are all complaining there's mobile reception and hot showers," Godfrey laughs.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Franco » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 7:48 pm

Design a stove without cute cozy (if it's not safe) heavier / no heat exchanger (if it's not safe)

The attempt at better warnings could just as easily be seen as proof
.

Brilliant.
Thousands of user over several years, someone misuse the item and the manufacturer gets the blame.
Let's ban everything that can go wrong so that we are all be nice and safe at home.
BTW, statistically, most accidents happen at home.
People falling off ladders (they should ban those) and people setting fire to their kitchen by leaving pots unattended on their stove.
let's hope that those pots don't come with a warning otherwise it is an admission of guilt.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Nuts » Tue 15 Jan, 2019 8:45 pm

C'mon Franco, let's not get carried away :) (and I wasn't 'yelling').

My involvement was in support of species and the like, not against those who could never make/have never made such a mistake or have enough faith in this company or it's products to expect nothing more could be done (than yell a warning).
"The guides are all complaining there's mobile reception and hot showers," Godfrey laughs.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby beardless » Wed 16 Jan, 2019 1:12 pm

Species 8472 wrote:After life long Trangia user I decided for the sake of some lower weight to invest in a Jetboil Flash. ... and I decided to test it. I had already viewed many YouTube videos and skimped over the instructions.


Looks like the skimping over the instructions is the issue as well as an assumption that it works the same as a trangia.

It is a good lesson and reminder for us all to read instructions.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby north-north-west » Thu 17 Jan, 2019 8:05 am

Buys fancy new kit.
Doesn't read instructions properly.
Assumes it can be used the same way as completely different equipment.
Finds out it can't.
Blames design.

Get over yourself. You screwed up. Admit it and move on.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby Nuts » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 8:45 am

hmmm, I thought someone would at least disagree (if not tell you to take your own advice).
Species came here admitting his mistake and wondering whether being able to make this mistake (missing the warning not to heat the empty pot) was good enough or unreasonable. It's at the very least a reasonable question, as a minute on google would show.

poor guy's probably gone looking for his own species.
"The guides are all complaining there's mobile reception and hot showers," Godfrey laughs.
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Re: Jetboil Flash Disaster

Postby slparker » Fri 18 Jan, 2019 9:59 am

well... not quite. the OP came here admitting their mistake and then queried whether it was a problem with the equipmentt. The OP did not query as to whether not reading the instructions before operating the jetboil was the source of the problem.
The OP asked a reasonable question,yes, but when informed by various posts that the problem was with the operator and not the equipment (because the instructions warned specifically against the act that the OP performed that led to the equipment destruction) the OP appeared to want to blame the quality of the instruction sheet and not their actions in operating the equipment without referring to the instructions.

Perhaps i am a little intolerant but I worked in ED for a while where we would see people who chose to operate angle grinders, lawnmowers, nailguns etc without reading the instructions on their dangerous equipment. The OP got off without losing his fingers, limbs, face or eyes so in my opinion a little derision and the loss of $130 is a small price to pay for operating an explosive device without reading the instructions.

Now, we have all operated equipment without referring to instructions but I consider that most people, should they perform an act which led to equipment malfunction, would admit that it was the not reading the instructions that was the problem - not the equipment in question. especially given that these very same instructions warn against the act that predictably led to the failure.
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