Cold foods

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Cold foods

Postby loganator » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 6:24 pm

Hello,

I plan on going on a 40-50 day expedition come June. I'm currently thinking of going cold foods only to keep down on the weight (no stove or fuel). I'll have caches spread about 5-7 days apart in which I'll have heavy reward foods such as canned baked beans etc. The food will have to be ok being in containers for say 60 days, in warm conditions.

Currently thinking along the lines of each day consuming

Breakfast:
Granolar/muesli- 100 grams gives 470cal

Powdered milk- 100 grams gives 500cal

Snacks throughout day:
Protein powder- 120grams gives 470cal

Dried fruit- 100grams gives 350+

Chocolate bars/m and ms gives 490 call
Nuts- 100 grams gives 620 odd

Home made anzac cookies 100grams gives 380grams.

That's about 3300 calories for 700grams.

I plan on hiking 40plus ks a day through difficult terrain. Weight loss is expected. I'll take multi vitamins to supplement as well. Can people please recommend food ideas to consume that require no heating as snacks or meals along the journey. (I can make some home made things beforehand using the pilots kitchen). Can people also suggest reward foods for my caches? Weight won't matter for them.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby loganator » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 6:26 pm

Oh and beef jerky. I'll have a bit of that each day to get some meat in me.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby Moondog55 » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 7:50 pm

Spouted grains and pulses
Ve are too soon old und too late schmart
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Re: Cold foods

Postby Giddy_up » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 8:25 pm

Hi loganator,

Interested to know what walk you are planning to attack. Sounds exciting!!




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Re: Cold foods

Postby loganator » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 9:03 pm

Hi Giddy up,

The plan is to traverse the brooks range in Alaska. Gave it a shot last year but tripped over in some tussocks, tearing the meniscus cartilage in my left knee in the first two hours of a 40day trip. Unfortunately after 3 days of pushing on had to call it quits, head back and wait for pick up. So disappointing.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby Giddy_up » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 9:28 pm

Wow, epic part of the world and when you said difficult terrain you where right. On your diet plans you might find some good information here: http://andrewskurka.com/section/how-to/ ... l-recipes/

Andrew has done the Brooks Range so his insight would be invaluable. Also something to consider is the fact that all dehydrated meals can be rehydrated with cold water, there just not hot, still taste the same.

Very interested to see what you decide on regarding meals and also how you approach the walk.


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Re: Cold foods

Postby Tortoise » Mon 21 Mar, 2016 10:16 pm

Dehydrated home-made hommus. Finally got around to it recently, and I love it! Rehydrates in cold water.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby loganator » Tue 22 Mar, 2016 12:22 pm

Yeah, I had a bit of a look at Andrew's traverse and his back packing info. I had 40kg on the back last time. This time I'll half that since the knee still ain't 100%. He's got plenty of good tips. I'll do another thread later of my gear list.

I didn't realise you could still use cold water for em but that makes sense. Does it take longer though to rehydrate them?

Thanks tortoise for the hommus idea. I do love chickpeas.

Any ideas for reward foods? Is there such thing as canned pudding or something similar? I'll be able to light a small fire at the caches and could chuck canned food in, weather permitting.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby Gadgetgeek » Tue 22 Mar, 2016 7:00 pm

On the cold dehydrated meals, yep, just more time, so sealing it up and carry it for part of the day would work.

Make sure you are getting enough fat with all your food, its easy to not have much when it comes to eating dried stuff. your canned stuff will help with that. Especially if you are sourcing your food cans up there, no worries about salt or fat! get the beans with bacon.

By pudding you mean a bread type thing? There are shelf stable pudding cups (custard?) available in north america, pretty common kids lunchbox thing (no idea if kids eat it here) I'd be doing a bit of flour and baking powder in each drop as a way to make some fresh bread in the case that you can do a fire at your stop, it would be fairly cheap and if you don't use it, you can carry it for that week, or leave it. Condiments, like hot sauce, anything to change up flavors. I'd also be thinking of things to change up the texture, saltines, chips, biscuits.

I'm going to assume you've done your research as far as dealing with bears, an interesting by-poduct of cold food is a limiting of food smells. (although not an elimination)

Good on you for giving it a go, that's a pretty huge task for anyone!
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Re: Cold foods

Postby clance » Tue 22 Mar, 2016 8:48 pm

FAT- the most energy dense food, I think you might want to add some olive oil or something like that to one of your daily meals

Just a thought

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&sour ... VjLbcpNKNA

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Re: Cold foods

Postby loganator » Wed 23 Mar, 2016 4:55 am

Yeah, I just remember reading old war stories and they'd get cans of pudding occasionally. Pretty sure it was pudding. Flour and baking powder is a great idea. Never thought about that. I like it.

Definitely did my research on the bears. I'll carry bear spray and a 357 again just in case. I don't expect any trouble from them if Buck's documentary of his traverse is anything to go by.

That's an interesting read. Frozen olive oil yummy. I'll try and incorporate some in my diet.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby Gadgetgeek » Wed 23 Mar, 2016 6:35 am

If you do your part, bears shouldn't be a problem, glad you are ready though. Time of year should be on your side, cubs will be big, but they won't be gorging for winter yet.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby Orion » Wed 23 Mar, 2016 7:21 am

- Nuts. There are a wide variety including flavored (e.g. wasabi) and candied (e.g. toffee almonds, peanut M&Ms). Macadamias are like butter.
- Crackers, greasy ones.
- Tortilla chips and dehydrated salsa would be great if the chips weren't so bulky.
- Salami. It's not very high calorie but tastes good and keeps well. Storage at high temp could be an issue though.
- Oil. I've never been able to make that work but I suppose if I were hungry enough it might be okay.
- Whisky. Cask strength or above is relatively energy dense.

I personally find it easier to have foods that can be eaten as is, without rehydration. I've tried the cold soaking thing in the past and more often than not found it kind of a bother for what turned out to be a disappointing meal. Instant hummus sounds good though.

Good luck!
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Re: Cold foods

Postby Moondog55 » Wed 23 Mar, 2016 2:42 pm

Of course if ration cost isn't an objection you could always use lifeboat ration bars as 50% of your daily.
Mainstay is supposed to be the least objectionable of them

https://survivorind.com/2400.html

http://www.amazon.com/Mainstay-Emergenc ... nstay+2400

Maybe healthier than Mars bars and salted peanuts
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Re: Cold foods

Postby CasualNerd » Wed 23 Mar, 2016 6:46 pm

clance wrote:FAT- the most energy dense food, I think you might want to add some olive oil or something like that to one of your daily meals

I'll second this, once you get used to eating high fat you'll never look back. search 'keto' and 'lchf'.

Stuff like shelf stable cheese and salami are great.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby kitty » Wed 23 Mar, 2016 7:57 pm

Puddings...you can get this from coles. Mix it with powdered milk. Its got choc chips in it.
http://www.chefskitchenrecipes.com/prod ... hip-mousse

Instand Custard Mix in single sachets (Foster Clark).
Another thread suggested making it to drinking consistency and having it instead of hot chocolate.

Fruit cake with UHT Cream (and custard) (and freeze dried raspberries).

Savory...also mayonnaise tastes great with everything like tuna, salmon, etc
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Re: Cold foods

Postby clance » Wed 23 Mar, 2016 8:54 pm

CasualNerd wrote:
clance wrote:FAT- the most energy dense food, I think you might want to add some olive oil or something like that to one of your daily meals

I'll second this, once you get used to eating high fat you'll never look back. search 'keto' and 'lchf'.

Stuff like shelf stable cheese and salami are great.

I wasn't going to mention ketosis and fat metabolism but since you did....

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&sour ... jVOGg-bV4A

This guy, Dominic D'agostino knows a he'll of a lot about it. IMO I think trying to hike ketogenically particularly in an isolated environment should be approached cautiously. Not saying that if it was done well you could potentially reduce the weight of your food significantly but I think it takes a long time to build the metabolic architecture to maintain ketosis safely. Plus a bit of know how too.

This site also contains some good info

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&sour ... 9unXnunjCA

My 2c

Thanks

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Re: Cold foods

Postby clance » Wed 23 Mar, 2016 8:58 pm

Sorry for some reason my last post got a bit messed up- the whole thing links to just one site....

https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&sour ... 9unXnunjCA

Try this one too


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Re: Cold foods

Postby Orion » Thu 24 Mar, 2016 3:59 am

CasualNerd wrote:
clance wrote:FAT- the most energy dense food, I think you might want to add some olive oil or something like that to one of your daily meals

I'll second this, once you get used to eating high fat you'll never look back. search 'keto' and 'lchf'.

Stuff like shelf stable cheese and salami are great.

Actually most cheese and salami, while high in fat, are poor choices in terms of energy density because they contain a lot of water. Typical firm cheeses have about the same energy density as table sugar. Salami tends to be lower in energy density. When I am trying to minimize food weight I leave the cheese at home and only take salami because it works so well for me (I just can't eat nuts for dinner).

Historically Antarctic teams have taken rations very high in fat. Scott's expeditions were probably near 70% in terms of energy (42% by weight) from fat. More recently Stroud/Fiennes relied on a diet with 57% of the energy from fat.

On summer walks in the California Sierra I've carried cold food that was 48% fat. But the energy density of the food was roughly the same as what loginator has planned (4.8 Cal/g versus 4.7 Cal/g). The reason it isn't more impressive is because of the non-caloric fraction of the food (moisture and fiber). Even apparently dry foods usually contain moisture. Salami and cheese are more obviously "wet" foods, but even crackers aren't really dry. Eliminating this is virtually impossible; minimizing it involves a tradeoff between weight reduction and palatability.

How much fat one can theoretically tolerate and how much one can actually tolerate may be two different things. I've found what works for me; I wouldn't presuppose what works for you. What looks good on a spreadsheet may not look so good in your tent. You have to be able to eat it.

Interestingly, current New Zealands Antarctic field rations contain less fat than what I carried on a well defined trail in the summer. They probably eat less fat than what many city dwellers eat.

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Re: Cold foods

Postby Gadgetgeek » Thu 24 Mar, 2016 6:38 am

I guess at the end of the day, the most efficient foods are the ones your body agrees with the most. No point in having a super food that either you don't like, or gives you stomach problems.

I'd also have concerns about ketosis and the resultant smells in bear country. no evidence, just a gut feeling it might end badly.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby Mark F » Thu 24 Mar, 2016 8:43 am

I expect that the additional weight of a balanced diet using cold food compared to dehydrated food will balance out the weight of a small gas burner and fuel especially with only approx 5 days between supply drops.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby Orion » Thu 24 Mar, 2016 10:56 am

Mark F wrote:I expect that the additional weight of a balanced diet using cold food compared to dehydrated food will balance out the weight of a small gas burner and fuel especially with only approx 5 days between supply drops.

That's an oft-stated hypothesis. I've never seen an actual comparison, that is with real foods that were designed to be as light as possible for both cold and stove cases.

Ultimately it depends on what food choices are "allowable" in the comparison, and that in turn varies person to person. When I've done the comparison I've found it wasn't true, at least not for me and the foods I'd considered.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby Gadgetgeek » Thu 24 Mar, 2016 6:18 pm

Where I work we use the backcountry cuisine chicken as part of a group meal, get just the chicken in big bags. When we opened a bag to do a demo, half of us could have just eaten the bag like chips! So as you say, it really depends on what you consider to be "food" as to what's useful to you.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby andrewa » Thu 24 Mar, 2016 6:58 pm

Have a look at

http://packrafting.blogspot.com.au

And search the bottom left for "Brooks Range", and "Food".

Roman has done some long trips in Alaska, including joining Andrew Skurka on part of his. I seem to recall Roman had a rather unusual food list which included lots of almond butter and Pringles, but I'm sure you'll find it on this blog.

happy planning.

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Re: Cold foods

Postby Mark F » Thu 24 Mar, 2016 7:06 pm

I was careful to use the term "balanced diet". :wink:

I expect a gas cooking system would add about 200g + fuel to the weight. Pot,cozy and stove about 100g and empty weight of a small fuel canister 100g for 200g base weight. Options such as Esbit would reduce this by half.
Fuel for 1 will be about 20g per day so an average carry of 250g with 5 days between supplies. This is a third of a day of food @ 750g per day.

I suspect that if you can stomach a diet of largely fat and protein for over a month then no cook will be lighter even with the hidden water in cheese etc but if you want to add in carbohydrates (rice, pasta etc) as most of us consume customarily consume then penalty for the "comfort" factor of a hot meal and drinks is pretty minimal.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby Orion » Fri 25 Mar, 2016 3:17 am

Mark F wrote:I was careful to use the term "balanced diet". :wink:

I expect a gas cooking system would add about 200g + fuel to the weight. Pot,cozy and stove about 100g and empty weight of a small fuel canister 100g for 200g base weight. Options such as Esbit would reduce this by half.
Fuel for 1 will be about 20g per day so an average carry of 250g with 5 days between supplies. This is a third of a day of food @ 750g per day.

I suspect that if you can stomach a diet of largely fat and protein for over a month then no cook will be lighter even with the hidden water in cheese etc but if you want to add in carbohydrates (rice, pasta etc) as most of us consume customarily consume then penalty for the "comfort" factor of a hot meal and drinks is pretty minimal.

My cold meal plan of a few years ago wasn't high in protein. Most people would probably complain there wasn't enough (it was roughly 10% protein / 40% carbohydrate). Looking at the brief list of foods loginator has posted I wouldn't be surprised if his numbers are similar.

I love rice and pasta, but despite being fairly dry they have only modest energy density, less than many cheeses or salamis (despite their water contents). If you include the weight of the fuel it takes to cook them they are actually kind of heavy. And you could always take couscous and soak it in cold water; I used to do that with success.

Granted, a lightweight stove doesn't weigh much and provides some comfort. That's the trick with reducing pack weight though, leaving behind all of those little comfort items in order to be more comfortable while walking. At 300g (or nearly 500g for those 7 day stretches) a stove is a significant addition. And unlike food most of that weight is not consumable; you always carry it.

If the difference were between carrying 300-500g versus feeling horrible then the choice would be clear. But I am fine eating that way, at least for a couple of weeks. Over a long enough period of time it would start to matter to me. A month? Maybe. Actually, a month of cooked bushwalking food would probably get to me.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby DAndy » Sat 26 Mar, 2016 6:48 pm

Go Keto, and look up Pemmican! I have been Keto for a while if you would like a first hand account of the transition.

Your protein is low, you would be consuming your muscle after a few days.

I would like to know what these Ketosis smells are that bears might like?
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Re: Cold foods - reward caches

Postby walk2wineries » Sat 26 Mar, 2016 7:48 pm

Reward Caches sounds like what I carry in my little camper. If you can do boilinthebag stuff at those sites there are several firms doing longlife lambshanks and other meals which aren't dehydrated http://happycampergourmet.com.au/. Good brand tinned soups -the meatballs type that you don't dilute. This mob are sited somewhere in the Murray Riverlands and ALL their stuff is reward food! I wasn't rapt in the rabbit but the duck and the beef were good and the sausages and lentils excellent. http://www.franckfood.com/
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Re: Cold foods

Postby Gadgetgeek » Sat 26 Mar, 2016 10:58 pm

To a bear, anything that smells of breaking down protein, urine, and all those associated smells are food. anything a bear can smell is food for that matter. I'm just thinking that the more odor, particularity the more peculiar and unfamiliar, the more the bears will want to know what it is. The trick of reducing risk in bear country is reducing the number of encounters. more encounters means more risk. This is all just speculation, and guesswork. I grew up around bears, but have only had a few encounters, and none that were troublesome, but in my area it was black bears, which is easy mode compared to barren ground grizzly.
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Re: Cold foods

Postby Orion » Sun 27 Mar, 2016 3:31 am

DAndy wrote:Your protein is low, you would be consuming your muscle after a few days.

It doesn't really matter. It's inevitable I will lose some lean body mass because the calories are insufficient. Increasing the protein percentage won't make very much difference except that it could result in foods that are even less palatable. Adding more food won't help either because I simply can't eat enough bushwalking food, cold or cooked. It's not of a high enough quality (without it also being very heavy and perishable food).

Losing some muscle mass isn't a big deal anyway. It comes back.

If I could have any food I wanted in the bush I'd consume a very high carbohydrate diet. That's what works best for me.
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