Hilleberg Nallo 4 GT Tent

[the_camera_poser]

Anyone have any experience with this tent, or others in the range? Would it suit 4 season use in Tassie?

Cheers!

[rabbit]

Hilleberg tents are very well-made and have a good reputation.
Most if not all Hilleberg tents have a 4-season rating.

Ryan

[flyfisher]

Now you're on the right track, just what you need just a few $$$$$
FF

[Nuts]

Hey CP,

We have some Nallo 3 (slightly smaller and without the extended vestible) I will write more about them after winter as we have only used them since November and the odd light snow shower.
So far they have proved all that is said about them not a drop in heavy rain. They will suffer condensation but I really wonder how people use them... They can be closed right down unlike anything were used to here in Oz and I think this is where folks go wrong, not really understanding that they are buying a mountaineering tent. Leave the door open and the vents! (mesh closed)

Well made, unmatched weight for function and easy/quick to erect (despite the jumble they will first appear (with the guys all attached) I'd expect the 4 to be a large 3 (the 3's a large 2) If you are thinking of the family I Would go the GT with its mega vestible as it could be a bit frustrating with the single entrance in heavy weather. they are a long option though.

You must pay a lota tax to be using that as a break!

[the_camera_poser]

So Nuts- you have the door partially unzipped to avoid condensation- how does that effect the warmth of the tent? How well vented is it when totally sealed up?

[Damien]

I've got the Hilleberg Kaitum 2 and it is bombproof, i'd highly recommend the brand.
The tents have been proven in arctic and antarctic expeditions and are very well made.

[the_camera_poser]

Well, I love the vestibule in this one- and the size-to-weight can't be beaten. That vestibule would certainly come in handy with a 5 yo, not to mention all the rained-in days one can encounter here.

I owe whoever mentioned that Moontrail site a six-pack of Boags- that site is awesome, and what prices!

[Nuts]

CP, The door has separate mesh/fabric panels with a big wired chimney in the fly. The rear has a vent in both. With them closed and pitched tight they pull almost to the ground and I'd imagine they would get steamy in all but our coldest weather. With them open we have had no worries so far (perhaps 3-400 person/nights) It seems a matter of 'balance'. I cant imagine a warmer setup...

The GT models are long buts its either that or wide if you need that much space.

Perhaps you could get one of these? :

http://www.moontrail.com/hilleberg-atlas.php

Also keep in mind that we use them on platforms. I would like to test them thru winter and snow camping so we will see.

BTW I had a Swede on the last trip who reckons their conditions cool/wet are similar most of the year (if a lot colder mid- winter) They are a Swedish legend she say's...

Moontrail is a good'n and reasonable prices, Hilleberg cost about the same direct. I dont know whether you'll scrape under the tax sniffers in customs either way however. So you may pay duties also?

[the_camera_poser]

Nuts- I walked with someone in the US that used to do expeditions all over the world- up the north face of Everest, all that sort of stuff. He had one of those big basecamp dome jobs like the link you posted- that was too cool. He had all the gear. I once watched him run, I mean RUN, up a bluff around the steepness and height of Marions, from the edge of Dove Lake. He was a champ.

The thing about being a Yank is, you have all sorts of Yank friends that will repackage a nice tent like that and mail it to you as a gift, thus surpassing the customs sniffers See, we are good for something.....

I reckon the Nallo 4GT is definitely the go for us- it fits our needs exactly. I'm a *&%$#! moose, to put it bluntly, and I reckon my girls would just about strangle me if they had to spend a night with me in a 3 man tent (this has happened before, and they were pretty surly with me for the next few days.) And it is only a bit more expensive than the WE Cirque I was considering, not to mention 2 kg lighter!

Thanks for your help, all!

[tasadam]

I have the Hilleberg Nallo2 as well. An excellent tent. Strong, light-weight (2.1KG's), very easy to use. Only problem is it is expensive. I got it when the doller was over .80 US so exchange was in my favour. Get it wrong and you pay a lot more.
Moontrail offer points when you buy - you can use those points as a discount on the item if there's nothing else you want.
I use Tyvek under the tent as a groundsheet, it covers half the vestuble space as well which comes in handy for somewhere to get the boots off & on without dragging too much dirt into the tent.
There are lots of good reviews on the Nallo range if you want to google.
Some concerns were raised regarding condensation, I believe these concerns primarily related to an earlier version - improvements include the rear window and the roll-up bit at the back.
I have not had any condensation issues in the Nallo2 since I've had it - we always have the window open, and usually have the door at least half open, sometimes fully open (always flyscreen closed, but the other door open to allow ventillation). We also always have the bit at the back on the outside rolled open to assist in ventillation.

When we were looking at buying, we were considering the Nallo3, but ended up buying the Nallo2 - good thing, as there is stacks of room for my wife and I.
The Nallo3 would have been way too big for us.

[the_camera_poser]

Outstanding guys. I know it's dear, but I'm willing to pay extra for 1) low weight, 2) roomy with useable vestibule, 3) quality.

Added to my list!

[Brett]

Hi

I have a Katium 3 that weights 3 kilograms and can actually sleep three adults in comfort though it is normally used for two with me. It is superb in both design and finish. Hilleberg claim that vestibules are designed in all their tents to hold the amount of gear for the number of people stated it can sleep. I agree and even with 90 to 100 litre packs there is space for boots and poles in the vestibules.

The design is a tunnel one so to fully pitch it you need what appears to be an impossibly large number of pegs though for normal use a minimum of four can be used. I love the fact that the front can be folded back giving great views or closed up to protect from the weather.

Now condensation. This is a contentious issue with people experiences widely varying. I have a Mountain Design ultra light three man (maybe two people with mid size packs) that can get condensation in just about any condition. The Hilleberg has never had condensation. The reason is the design. The Mountain Design has no ventilation for the outer shell and is a dome so as the hot warm breath rises it catches on the impermeable outer layer and runs down the side. The inner will shield from some dripping but bump the two layers together and start hunting for your rain coat. The Hilleberg has two massive vents on the outer shell and if you unzip the top of the inner shell at each end no problems. Fully zip up the inner and you might have problems but heck for most days of the year and places in Tasmania you will be rather stuffy and hot. With the top unzipped I never experienced a draft. You can fully close the outer and inner shell and then I would expect condensation but me thinks that Hilleberg has that feature for mid winter artic conditions rather than normal Tasmanian use.

One final thing. Get the custom designed ground mat as it is light and clips nicely with the main tent. It is also great for working out where to put the tent in closed in terrain. The Katium is long, and I mean looooong so this saves you having to re-pitch if your dimension perception is a little suspect.

In all if you replace a Hilleberg the best replacement is another Hilleberg. There are tents that can do a similar job at a cheaper price but for shear just getting it right Hilleberg is worth the money. Added bonus for tall timber like me is the Hilleberg family is similar vertically enhanced so it is the only tent in the light weight range that I can fully stretch my feet down and not hit a wall. It is so good it has even stopped this gear freaks search for the perfect tent. Now maybe I should look at the one man version? Um!

Cheers Brett

[the_camera_poser]

excellent review- thanks!

[tasadam]

The Katium is long, and I mean looooong

That was the reason why I ended up going for the Nallo. The two vestubles was something I was used to with my old tent, and something I initially wanted.
Looked long and hard at the dimensions of the Katium and the Nallo2 before deciding on one vestuble. A small shift to the way we pack our gear up for the night, but now we're used to it and it's fine.
We used to store our packs & wet weather gear in the smaller rear vestuble of the snowcave and have boots, cooking etc in the front vestuble.
Now we have two packs one on top of the other on the side of the vestuble, food bag goes in the pack. Billy & stove on top of the pack so I can hear it clanking if there's a rogue animal looking for a feed, boots & water bottles on other side of vestuble and plenty of room to fit boots and exit the tent in the middle area, also enough room to cook and the inner is really easy to detach and fold in to make a bigger vestuble for CAREFUL indoor cooking in the vestuble.
Lighting a shellite stove in a vestuble is something you need to be good at before trying the first time - you don't get a chance to recover from one bad experience. I find the camera tripod helps hold the door out of the way.
We didn't buy the custom groundsheet, we have a piece of Tyvek that works well, covers the underside of the tent as well as half the vestuble area, good for keeping debris from being dragged into the tent.

[Brett]

Hi

It is interesting what causes one person to jump one way compared to another. My length meant I was looking for a tent with straight sides (Ok ends) that meant that the length was usable all the way up. Actually Petre Hilleberg zeroed in on that when choosing between the Katium and the Nalo. She mentioned that tall timber in a Nalo often protect their sleeping bag feet from condensation by wrapping the sleeping bag foot in a rain coat. Basically for my height she suggested that the Nalo could be a bit short given big feet and longer bag, ie 6'6" compared to 6". Now if you are not 6'4" with supersized feet the Nalo is a great choice.

The clincher for the Katium was the newer lighter weight and even bigger version was being made using the same fabric as the Nalo where the older version used the heavier fabric. If that would not have happened I would have probably jump for the Nalo. Generallay speaking the custom footprint means that you can easily play with the layout to fit the blighter into tight spots. Also it does clip so neatly to the main tent plus perfectly matches the shape that thickens and then thins.

I get the feeling the reason for our different choice is the reason why Hilleberg do both models as each has pros and cons so hopefully what is written about both will help others decide what suits their requirements better or at least be aware of the tradeoffs.

Cheers Brett

[tasadam]

An excellent point re body length (height).
I have also read where sompe people need to wrap the ends of their sleeping bags in Nallo tents so the bags don't get wet by toughing the sloping back.
I'm just under 6 feet (178cm) and my wife is shorter, so it doesn't bother us.

[Nuts]

With the Nallo it does help a lot to hitch up(as well as out) the centre support/ guy on the centre (rear/outer)

[tasadam]

With the Nallo it does help a lot to hitch up(as well as out) the centre support/ guy on the centre (rear/outer)

Agreed, I always do. I can see the point though, on the taller folk amongst us (or is that "longer" when in the tent).

A very cold morning.

D2C_8558.JPG (54.11 KiB) Viewed 986 times

Very cold indeed...

D2C_8607.JPG (49.05 KiB) Viewed 984 times

[the_camera_poser]

Adam, I'll still try to get by and see that one of yours. I'm very keen on them- can't make my mind up between cheap/disposable vs. bombproof and expensive.

[Nuts]

That does indeed look Cold. We hitch them up (on a branch or over a stick) for the taller timber

[Brett]

Um? Cheap and cheerful versus bombproof. It depends on your use. I would not like to be somewhere extreme when my tent explodes in strong winds in the middle of the night. Maybe a better consideration is bombproof comes as standard and it comfort (carrying as well as sleeping) versus cost. My logic is a night in a tent compared to a night in a hotel. Under that logic a tent becomes quite cheap almost regardless of the cost.

As an accountant we talk of total cost of ownership with is the cost divided by the amount of use (ok for the benefit of my old lecturer we then apply present value to discount the benefit). There are plenty of old New Zealand made McPac tents around that have spent many nights in the wilderness so even though they cost an arm and a leg ten years ago the cost per use is very reasonable. At a point the modern materials move on that make for a bigger, lighter and stronger tent so you might wind up changing for that reason rather than the tent wearing out. Though a proven good tent is something that I would tent to hold on to.

I favour buy once and get it right logic as being the cheapest in the long run but stuff up more often than not. I kick myself for buying the wrong product or being forced to buy what is immediately available because a trip is coming up an I need something. My Mountain Design tent falls into that category. A light and bombproof tent but no where as comfortable as the Hilleberg. Wake up with condensation dropping in your face and a cold draft blowing through a tent an cost saving start to take second place.

As is said "quality is long remember after the purchase price has been forgotten". Of course this assumes that you can afford the cost. If not then make do and enjoy the best that you can afford just make sure it is safe for the worst conditions that you are likely to experience.

Cheers Brett

[the_camera_poser]

All true Brett- I do agree. You can find bargains though- you just have to be persistent in looking and lucky in timing. But I'm not sure anything "affordable" will do as well as a Hilleberg or a Bibler, especially in a no warning wind/snow storm on the Central Plateau with my 5 year old over Easter. Which brings up the third element, which is safety. It's fine to say there's always a hut nearby, but there's not always a hut nearby, and people get lost, particularly in bad weather, and a tent is a crucial bit of safety gear. So, when considering it's for the safety of my family, maybe the extra expense is a no-brainer. If it was just me, I'd just go for a bivy, as I'm always miserable sleeping out anyhow.

[Brett]

As mentioned by I think Tasdam never under estimate the usefulness of a ground sheet that extends to the vestibules. Many people will argue (and with good reasons) that a properly specified tent should not need a ground sheet as the floor should be solid enough to handle what nature will throw at it providing you are sensible. But what I have found is a ground sheet makes for faster pull down time as the tent itself stays cleaner and dryer so can be pack up out of the way and you are left with only one grubby item to deal with.

Now a ground sheet that extends to the vestibules means that your packs can stay clean and so can your your feet and knees can when getting out of the tent. Due to the diamond shape of the Mountain Design tent I have not yet sourced a ground mat so have been using the tent straight. What I have found is the packs get filthy especially if they have been accessed during the night as the tight space means that often they touch the out shell and the condensation wicks to them so rolling them around to find that elusive item means that dirt on the ground turns into mud when the wet side hits the ground. For the sake of say 400 grams you can with a ground sheet have a semi clean area and therefore have a match better chance of keeping the inside of the main tent clean. Now this would be handy I would imagine with a five year old.

A good design ground sheet means that you can for cooking roll it out of the way so that why I like the two vestibules of the Katium as the rear is for storage and the front is for access and cooking. As for cooking in a vestibule that is something that every hack "occupational health and safety" person will state should not happen and then leave it at that. The real world is not that black and white. Yes being vacuum sealed and then burnt by your own tent is not a good look so avoid cooking in a tent as much as possible. It is interesting to read the various tent manufactures comments on this. Some are a straight no and other like Hilleberg state the obvious perils but also factor this consideration in with tent design. That being generally an open sided porch type vestibule design. I can not remember the manufacture but one USA brand has designed the vestibule to have a veranda that is high as possible so you can cook in comfort and with greater safety as a stated feature. The Hilleberg Katium is not bad but is a much more of a compromise. As for the Mountain Design tent being a dome it does not work as opening the outer shell means rain can get into the main tent and you have no protection when cooking plus the confined space means a much greater chance of accidents so on a rainy morning breakfast is musslie bars and cold water, err, what a great way to start the day.

My opinion is the best tents are designed by manufactures that actually use them. Hilleberg is a person (actually a family) that do like the out doors so use their own products and if something annoys them or they think of a better idea then either a new model is released or an old one is improved. Often the best tents (packs, etc) are ones that appear quite plain but have a lot of careful thought put into the compromises. Sadly many manufactures that started off that way are now just marketing brands so with these brands their models seam to be on a downward path due to cost saving or being burdened by gimmicks. It is amazing when I compare my two tents based on "specification" compared to actual use. Both read well and will keep you safe and dry in high winds but one is a shelter and the other is a home with the distinguishing factors being rather simple design differences and/or differing opinion to cost saving. Do not get me wrong, the Mountain Design Neutron range are acceptable products and properly used should give good service and on special are excellent value. Likewise so are many other brands. However, if you are paying full price they are not much cheaper than a Hilleberg depending on the ratio of green bananas is to the green back.

As for bargain hunting that is one thing that a gear freak like me loves so go forth and seek out the bargains. My best buys have been when I have not actually set out to buy something but have found it when browsing. Nothing like a change in model to get the price down and often the older model is actually a better tent than the newer model especially if the manufacture has been sold and is now a "brand name". Happy hunting and please report back your experiences.

Cheers Brett

[tasadam]

Brett an excellent and informative post.

Often the best tents (packs, etc) are ones that appear quite plain but have a lot of careful thought put into the compromises. Sadly many manufactures that started off that way are now just marketing brands so with these brands their models seam to be on a downward path due to cost saving or being burdened by gimmicks. It is amazing when I compare my two tents based on "specification" compared to actual use. Both read well and will keep you safe and dry in high winds but one is a shelter and the other is a home with the distinguishing factors being rather simple design differences and/or differing opinion to cost saving.

This is an interesting point.
Nothing to do with bushwalking, but something very relevant is a description of what is going on with the cheaper manufacture of washing machines -
http://www.washerhelp.co.uk/reviews/miele-overview.html

What's wrong with cheaper washing machines?

The trouble with many washing machines these days, is that their design and reliability seems to be dictated almost entirely by costs. The majority of washing machine manufacturers are fighting out a long running price war, which will probably end up with them all being taken over by large global companies until there are just one or two companies making washing machines worldwide. Already, many apparently competing washing machines are actually owned by the same companies.
In an ideal world, companies making a product should make it as well as they possibly can, and then sell it at what it costs, plus the profit margin. Unfortunately though, this results in a product costing a lot more than the average person is prepared to pay. So manufacturers usually do it the other way round. They find out or guess what most people will pay and build the product to sell at that price. This usually results in a lot of corners being cut, then as competition increases, these products can become lower and lower in quality until they become rubbish - but most people still buy them because they won't pay for a "proper" one. People usually get what they pay for. Frankly, if you've had nothing but trouble for many years with your washing machines and think they are rubbish, it's possibly because you won't pay up for a good one. To be fair though, most people just don't think of it like this, or aren't even aware that high quality washing machines are available.

And on the article goes - a good read on manufacturing principles in general, even though they are specifically talking about washing machines you can see the principles would be very similar in a lot of "cheaper" items.

As they say, you get what you pay for.

[Brett]

Hi Tasadam

I whole heartily agree that we are of often victims of our own penny pinching. A doubling in price might result in a ten fold increase in life with a make higher safety margin and considerable reliability. Also it worries me on weight saving in bushwalking gear. Weight and strength are competing sides of many designs for the same cost. To avoid being flame roasted on the light weight mobs' titanium stoves I acknowledge that using exotic materials and blowing the budget you can get fantastic products much tougher than the traditional material. I am not so sure about using light weight or cheap items that compromise strength if they are involved in protecting you from the elements. I work on the principal that I enjoy my time away from work and figure that so do the volunteer search and rescue crew so seek to avoid never troubling them but greatly appreciate that they are prepared to give up their free time if I get it wrong.

It is interesting that Hilleberg design their tents to be doubled pole and I think will supply 10mm instead of 9mm poles if requested. I am sure that perched on a mountain ridge in a blizzard then the extra weight would seam immaterial compared to spending two days with the tent roof sitting on your nose. However, I think for maybe the one in hundred year events the standard 9mm poles are more than strong enough for what I do.

Of course to many people cost is a factor of life and economically sensible products that can do the job safely if not with the best comfort are the difference in seeing the sights or staying home. Fitting out a tribe that grows out of gear must be a nightmare. I hope it is the purpose of this section of the board not only to highlight fantastic products but also identify products that can do the job at the lowest cost. Maybe we can have "See the South West for under $100 in gear" thread as well as for under 10 kilograms. The important thing is everything is a trade off between size, strength weight and cost.

We all have our own prejudices in what we like. Mine is finding the item that does the job perfectly with bullet proof reliability. For me Hilleberg have hit that holly grail and One Planet largely for packs with Western Mountaineering for sleeping bags (One Planet if I was shorter). Now stoves the jury is still out with me and my bank account is suffering as the search continues. For others it is the search for light weight and for others the lowest cost. So let the search continue.

Cheers Brett

[sthughes]

In regard to the whole cost versus quality thing, the worst thing is that in many instances cost and quality are unrelated. Instead it may be two identical items simply with different brands printed on them at the end of the assembly line. One is "high" quality and hence expensive, the other is considered cheap crap , despite being the identical item repackaged (Holden Barina??) (it's especially the case with electrical goods). It's not always easy to tell 'brand hype' from genuine guality, especially in this age of online shopping
None the less I largely agree genuine quality is worth extra. Marketing of quality products, as quality products, is the key. If people don't know it is definitely better they have no reason to cough up extra cash for it. The mistake may be that rather than spend the money to convince people their products are superior, companies fall into the trap of simply aiming to match a competitors price. It has the same result of maintaining sales, at least in the short term, but costs less.

[Brett]

It was interesting when I emailed Hilleberg on the low down of the Akto for size. The Hillebergs are quite happy for their tents to be expensive and if you do not want to pay the money then great but they refuse to lower quality and weight. They are pretty firm on the view that they are sourcing the lowest weight material for the strength that they require but that does not mean that if a newer material will come along they will not change. And example where weight could be saved is the external selves for the poles. Yes dump them and have the fly stretched over the poles and this will save weight and cost but Hilleberg like the idea that a broken pole does not puncture the fly. For another manufacturer they might see this as not an issue based on their experience of failure but I like having the choice and would be sad if Hilleberg became another Kathmandu.

I respect any sensible manufacturer that is honest about the design trade-off that they make to achieve a goal. Tarpent started out saving weight and is honest about what trade-off they have made and in fact their designs appear to be a lot stronger than what the weights (based on internet reports not personal experience) suggest so I assume that that is their safety margin.

What annoys me is firms trading on brand names. Manufacturer X might have made the most bomb proof tent on the market then after many restructures wound up being a brand name for a marketer. Its production might have move to China but because the materials are the same and reasonable quality control exists then it might still be the same tent but then three things tend to happen. The first is design improvements stall so it gets out paced by the opposition. Again no problems, just it is not a trendy as it use to be. The second is more worrying. It is updated with different materials and the original expertise that developed it is no longer there so the design is compromised. A problem with the Russian nuclear sub project was the original engineers were detained by the state and unfamiliar ones then worked on the subs with rather sad results. The engineers called it "sitting on the shoulders of giants", by that you get the same view as a giant but you are not a giant. The third is called under marketing theory in my text book the "rip off strategy" and I am not kidding that what it is called. Here you buy a "noble" brand and milk it for all it is worth with the idea by the time the public have woken up you have made your money so move on to another brand and do the same thing. This does not mean necessary down right deception but take the Buick brand in the USA. At the end of the day it was a re-badged Pontiac and is now scheduled for closure under GM restructuring. Buick was a brand that stood for conservative long lived engineering and I do believe there was a large court case when the owners found out that the the famous blue motor was actually a Chev motor painted blue in the later models.

We have seen quite a few changes on who is manufacturing what and how so saying brand X is great is dangerous as it might be a shadow of its former self. Price is also not a guide as with Therma-rest mats. They are two to three times the cost compared to direct to USA purchasing. It is interesting to note that the Chinese knock-offs are say 60% their cost in USA and 60% the cost in Australia so the price suggests it reflects what the market will bear rather than the cost of materials and quality of design and manufacturing. Scarpas whether you love them or hate them set the upper limit for boot price and it is amazing how a Chinese made one claiming similar materials is only a few dollars less yet Scarpa's have EU labour costs. It is easy to make something look the same but not so easy to understand why the original manufacturer went for forged rather than investment casting of components. As for blaming third party manufacturers for a drop in your brand's quality is glib to the point of insulting. It is your brand and your job to make sure everything is up to the standard and image that you project. If you have gone away from a local supplier of say poles for a Chinese one and those pole fail then that is your fault.

The only thing is we, assuming we want quality, must be prepared to pay for it. I am comfortable as long as a Hilleberg remains at the top and is using their tents that they will be great tents. If I read that the brand has been sold to a marketer then I would be concerned.

So ends today's rant.

Cheers Brett

[sthughes]

So ends today's rant.

Ahh but a good rant, you seem to manage quality AND quantity in your "rants" - well done

[Nuts]

It's easy to get lost in the detail. Hilleberg tents may be near the top of the tree but when it comes down to it are they really necessary here for most?

I think of my first Overland trip. As a poor student the K-mart A frame was a big purchase. Our slow progress on the track saw us camp at Pinestone Creek. It seemed like a good spot until the wind picked up and the snow started. Later that night we experienced a full blown gale that blew the tent from its moorings. I placed rocks on the guylines and crawled back in, it was a bit of a worry but the scariest part was the leeches that slid up and squeezed thru the mesh, an unstoppable army of them it seemed at the time. We 'survived', and had no other real dramas with the tent in the ten days.

Many years later I experienced the same conditions in the very same spot, this time in a (leading brand) tunnel design. Flattened to the ground with the force (to the point where we resembled cling wrapped snags) the only problem encountered was the same one, the pegs gave way and again, out looking for more solid anchor points.

While I wouldnt suggest a K-mart tent to anyone by choice, for decades before that the A frame was all that was available and I very much doubt that it was the tent itself that caused any real disasters. Not to the point that the marketers would have us believe anyhow...

While there are probably more dangerous locations, I havent yet experienced stronger winds than that A frame night. Even wrapped in the tent, experience would be the key as to what actions you took from there and the outcome. The 'crutch' of good gear is, I believe, just as dangerous as lack of experience. The Nallo is a fine tent, no doubt, but even it has its limits. Seems to me that lack of experience would negate the list of minor benefits besides the weight carried.

Just because the funds arent available shouldn't be a stopper, there are many cheaper designs that would suffice...In the real world use, I doubt there would be many that would lead to more than an uncomfortable night or two....

I also wonder what direction tents will head. How much weight is yet to be stripped from a tent such as the Nallo and at what additional cost?

[Brett]

Hi Nuts

You are right a poorly pitch tent or poor choice of location, either by lack of experience or necessity, would compromise just about any tent or piece of equipment and peg support for a tunnel design is vital. There is a race for saving weight and as another poster stated from a retail point there is a strong swing to light weight gear across the market no matter the price. At what point has this gone to far?

I to as a teenager begged, borrowed and brought gear as money was short. I used an A frame tent borrowed from Dad that from memory was remarkably light but probably was five kilograms (but as it has long since gone so I have no idea) and it slept three in comfort with the fourth not been a problem but that was many pizzas ago and even the 3/8" thick foam mat was from K'mart comfortable. It survived a windy night on Mount Roland in search of Haley's Comet no problems but that was not that extreme. I chuckle when I look at the latest light weight Tarptent designs as they do look very much like an A frame tent so maybe the wheel is turning. I might miss my wool lined Japhara but you can keep the cheap external frame pack as it was designed (a word used in the looses sense) to cripple its carrier.

Hilleberg have a great weight to size ratio with the option of getting a stronger, smaller and heavy tent for above the tree line use. Also Hilleberg is one of the few brands that I can fit into so in a way that was the main factor that lead me to them plus favourable posting on this site as I had never heard of the brand before. I would not like to be 6'6" and trying to find a tent for a 7' sleeping bag. Frankly I doubt if my Kaitum will ever get in position where its strength will be tested as my sometime walking companion is not likely to want to head to high and windy places in wintertime. I did get the matching snow pegs, hint

As a non smoker and being single money is not such an issue so I tend to fall for the charms of quality in things. Also at the end of the day the purchases that I regret most are the ones that I made when saving money. I like things to hang around a long time and what annoys more is something not working due to cost saving or an attempt to lighten it past what is sensible. Four years back my life for four months revolved around what I could carry on my back and this tends to focus you on the detail. Saw too many times back packers sprinting for the train and grabbing a pack only to have the zip fail thus spreading their belongings over the railway station. My One Planet Bass never let me down and today looks as good as new despite four months of hard use. Especially the zip off day pack as it was always on my shoulders and is as good as the day I got the pack. If I get the chance to do the same then the Bass is coming with me again. I do not give a stuff that it is probably the heaviest hybrid pack on the market at 4.5 kilograms. I would be sad if One Planet stop making such packs. As for its cost, that is now forgotten and besides on Ebay second hand they go for what I thought I paid new. I hope and expect that my Hilleberg tent will do similar service.

That does not mean that there are not many brands that can give good service but at the cost of weight and or less life or more restricted range of use. As long as the user understand this fine. A great buy based on user reports would be a well looked after Snow Cave (NZ made) tent that was going cheap second hand because someone thought it just too heavy to be trendy to carry. I love my McMillan pack and its harness so the only restriction is what I can haul up a hill.

Cheers Brett